Curse

Abedeus · Apr 08, 2008, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Where are my cookies?

Seriously, there is NOTHING wrong with Expertise. It was already once nerfed, so it doesn't affect shouts, either from Paragon or Warrior.

Randvek · Apr 08, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Where are my cookies?

Seriously, there is NOTHING wrong with Expertise. It was already once nerfed, so it doesn't affect shouts, either from Paragon or Warrior.

Yeah, I suppose Rangers using shouts was a big problem.

Wait, it was?

makosi · Apr 08, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randvek

Yeah, I suppose Rangers using shouts was a big problem.

Wait, it was?

During the NF weekend preview event, Expertise did affect shouts. It was 6v6 HA at the time and Ranger spike with "Go For the Eyes!" and "Find Their Weakness!" was nuts. It can still sort of be done but it's not sustainable on the battlefield because "Find Their Weakness!" eats the Ranger's energy.

C R A F T · Apr 08, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

People who seriously play these games will always find good combos that work and spread the word.

You shouldn't penalize those players for using their imagination.

Tyla · Apr 08, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

It was once imagination. Now it's peek at wiki, I bet (if there is a page) the new Sway page will have at least 5 billion views by now.

Phoenix Tears · Apr 08, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Expertise has not to be balance,d what needs to be changed to make the game more balanced is to allow all professions only to use certain Weapons, but not all.

Rangers yould be for example only be able to use Bows,Staffs, Swords and Daggers, but no Axes, Hammers, Scythes, Wands+Focus, Shields and Spears !!!

This Way, Anet would kill easily the Thumper, Escape Scythe and Pack Hunter (don't know this build yet, so no clue if it uses Spear or not, don't blame me XD) Build, without even touching the Expertise Attribute of Rangers.

Also the game would get then finally rid of lots of their Wannabe Profession Combos that look just terribly idiotic and unlogical.

Same then for the other professions, like Warriors being able to use only Swords, Axes, Hammers, Daggers & Short Bows, but no Scythe, Staffs, Wands+Focus and Spears

Caster Classes should be able to wear only their Staffs, Wands+Focus, and Daggers, but nothing else...

by this way would eliminate anet many totally unlogical Profession/Weapon combinations, where are also some under, which make the classes imba together with certain builds.

However, thats only my opinion. I think professions should be only able to use usual weapons those professions are really used to and that fit also to the profession.

Monks running around with Spears does absolutely not fit, Warriors running around with Magic Staffs also not, assassins/rangers with scythes is also a NO GO ect. pp.

GW's professions have imo too less attributes, this prob is one of the real bad sides of GW's 2 class system imo ...

Orange Milk · Apr 08, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Bad post Pheonix Tears, bad post.

Yes lets mak it so Rangers can only use swords from the warior lins, but no Shields or off hands, I LOLED HEARTILY. You have no idea why Monks carry spears do you? nor do you have any idea what the Monk Sacrifices from a normal "wand+ Focus" set to carry the spear, nor have you ever heard of weapon swapping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pheonix Tears
by this way would eliminate anet many totally unlogical Profession/Weapon combinations, where are also some under, which make the classes imba together with certain builds.

OMG NERF SYNERGY, DO IT!!!!!! nerf Creativity too while your at it.

I'm still loling at your post.

Still loling here too

Kaida the Heartless · Apr 08, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Seems to be the pve vs. pvp crowd again. sigh.

Just because Expertise may be getting affected, doesn't mean it has to be destroyed. Just lower the effectiveness of expertise when used with other classes' skills, it doesn't need to be killed entirely.

Tyla · Apr 08, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Seems to be the pve vs. pvp crowd again. sigh.

Just because Expertise may be getting affected, doesn't mean it has to be destroyed. Just lower the effectiveness of expertise when used with other classes' skills, it doesn't need to be killed entirely.

Agreed. It's best use is spreading conditions ect...
And with it's gimmicky side, you've got the primaries being better. Even though the secondary on the Ranger is abusing that primary regardless.

Who is it really going to effect other than people running junk builds that degenerate a form of PvP that was once high-end for fame?

viper11025 · Apr 08, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

While ur at it make my attack skills cost less.
LoL

Skyy High · Apr 08, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

You've got a point there, but I'm still going to disagree a bit. You've forgotten that your common Rush / Frenzy (ofcourse on a Warrior) also needs to know when to use those stances at the right times, and you've still got Bull's Strike, that can be used offensively and defensively.
Smart usage still promotes some decent play. But yeah, your point still stands on spamming D-Slash.

However you've got RaO on your common Thumper, which is an unstrippable IAS / Speedboost with no significant bad point. That skill is pretty broken in itself. And needs no insight on when to use it, apart from times when your energy get low.

All that RaO needs is to make it a stance. Yeah, RaO is a really good IAS/IMS on its own, but it's also really expensive, and basically requires EW in order to use in any decently long battle. It's all about tradeoffs: RaO is easier to use, but costly; introduce a method of removing it by making it a stance and it'd be risky. Rush/Frenzy is cheaper, but requires you to be skilled to use without possibly screwing yourself over. Which is also why thumpers will never be used in GvG; given a skilled player, said player will be able to do more with a warrior than a thumper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro Maniac

Of course it won't remove all button-mashing builds, however now you're saying: just because there are other dumb builds available, these ranger builds should exist too.

I only say that because that's literally the only reason given as to why it should be nerfed. The build clearly isn't that OP-ed enough to warrant nerfing in this manner (not to mention the fact that making expertise only affect ranger skills won't hurt thumpers at all), as evidenced by the fact that it isn't used in GvG. It's currently just the the standard button-mashing build used in HA, and it's not like that's a new thing. Even if you think that these builds are OP-ed, your target should be RaO. Much easier, much quicker, much simpler, and it doesn't absolutely destroy the (clearly intentional) synergy between ranger primaries and physical profession secondaries.

Quote:

And yes, I do get your point that in the thumper template (I love the fact that you guys only mention the thumper template while it is about all the R/A, R/Rt, R/W, R/P, R/D etc) the skill RaO is actually more important then the expertise. Doesn't mean you can implement both. I've never said nerfing expertise will fix all the problems in guild wars balance, it does fix some problems while there are no downsides.

Can't we start with the less destructive nerf though, that's more likely to actually fix the problem, rather than these blanket nerfs (which may, if taken far enough, require re-doing the energy costs of all ranger skills)?

Btw, ranger builds "abusing" expertise isn't what turned HA from "high end PvP" into a joke.

Pyro maniac · Apr 08, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

I only say that because that's literally the only reason given as to why it should be nerfed. The build clearly isn't that OP-ed enough to warrant nerfing in this manner (not to mention the fact that making expertise only affect ranger skills won't hurt thumpers at all), as evidenced by the fact that it isn't used in GvG. It's currently just the the standard button-mashing build used in HA, and it's not like that's a new thing. Even if you think that these builds are OP-ed, your target should be RaO. Much easier, much quicker, much simpler, and it doesn't absolutely destroy the (clearly intentional) synergy between ranger primaries and physical profession secondaries.

Why not fix both?

And thumper is used in GvG: ever heard of hero-way?

Sol Deathgard · Apr 09, 2008, 05:17 AM // 05:17

people cried for iway to be nerfed for ever a few yrs ago, simply cause 90% of the teams in HA used it.
anet nerfed it, and then they cried for Bloodspike to be nerfed cause 90% of the teams in HA used it.
Anet nerfed it, then people cried for SF to be nerfed because 90% of the teams in HA used it.
Then people cried for Ritspike to be nerfed because 90% of the teams in HA used it.
Now people cry for Expertise to be nerfed cause 90% of the teams are Sway.
notice a pattern?

if Sway gets nerfed, that just means another easy to use build will come about & people will cry cause 90% of the teams in HA use it.

Wanna know the funny thing about all this?

ALL THESE BUILDS WHERE EASILY BEATEN BY GOOD PLAYERS WHILE THE POOR PLAYERS CAME HERE TO CRY FOR A NERF!!

RedNova88 · Apr 09, 2008, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Deathgard

people cried for iway to be nerfed for ever a few yrs ago, simply cause 90% of the teams in HA used it.
anet nerfed it, and then they cried for Bloodspike to be nerfed cause 90% of the teams in HA used it.
Anet nerfed it, then people cried for SF to be nerfed because 90% of the teams in HA used it.
Then people cried for Ritspike to be nerfed because 90% of the teams in HA used it.
Now people cry for Expertise to be nerfed cause 90% of the teams are Sway.
notice a pattern?

if Sway gets nerfed, that just means another easy to use build will come about & people will cry cause 90% of the teams in HA use it.

Wanna know the funny thing about all this?

ALL THESE BUILDS WHERE EASILY BEATEN BY GOOD PLAYERS WHILE THE POOR PLAYERS CAME HERE TO CRY FOR A NERF!!

QFT x99999999999999. It's getting so ridiculous listening to all these people whine about Expertise. It's FINE! If you have a problem with any of the "abused" builds/skills or whatever you want to call them, DON'T GO TO WIKI! Use your OWN mind to make a counter to it if it's bothering you THAT much. A bad player can argue that any skill or attribute is overpowered if that person played poorly enough to lose to it.

And as a wise man once said a very, very, very long time ago. It's fine, learn to play.

Kaida the Heartless · Apr 09, 2008, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Nerfing isn't about winning and losing, it's about how easy it is. It's wrong for someone to spend a year learning to become a pro warrior when some ranger that snagged the build from obs mode runs up and tears them apart simply because the build is that much easier to use.

Then you have the player that learns to use the easy build really well, and because it's much easier, the potential to become much more destructive is there.

Are ya following me?

Edit: Also, yes there is a counter to everything, but it's hard to build against a class that is R/RandomClassAssignment. Besides, this is Guildwars and not Buildwars, no?

stale · Apr 09, 2008, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Deathgard

people cried for iway to be nerfed for ever a few yrs ago, simply cause 90% of the teams in HA used it.
anet nerfed it, and then they cried for Bloodspike to be nerfed cause 90% of the teams in HA used it.
Anet nerfed it, then people cried for SF to be nerfed because 90% of the teams in HA used it.
Then people cried for Ritspike to be nerfed because 90% of the teams in HA used it.
Now people cry for Expertise to be nerfed cause 90% of the teams are Sway.
notice a pattern?

if Sway gets nerfed, that just means another easy to use build will come about & people will cry cause 90% of the teams in HA use it.

Wanna know the funny thing about all this?

ALL THESE BUILDS WHERE EASILY BEATEN BY GOOD PLAYERS WHILE THE POOR PLAYERS CAME HERE TO CRY FOR A NERF!!

you hit the nail on the head, my friend. all this whining and moaning about expertise and rangers using different builds is just a pissfest from people who got thumped by some random ranger builds.

honestly, if folks would use a balanced skill bar, with their attack skills, some kind of snare/knockdown/interrupt (utility ftw, eh?) a self heal and a res, this wouldn't be an issue. what it comes down to is all the whiners who are unwilling, or lack the foresight, to bring a utility skill or two in their "perfect" builds, and get themselves thumped.

and, for the reply that's coming (a 1,2,3,4 button masher takes no skill) tough. with the exception of mes, monk and necro, all the builds in the game come down to button mashing - all you have to do is know when to hit the button.

not one of the R/?? builds is all that overpowered, and if you don't like the idea of the builds, don't use them. and for the gods sake, bring something to counter them, if they bother you so much.

oh, and deathguard, you left out the recurring paragon nerfs, and the soul reaping nerfs, and i'm sure others that came from the whinefests.

don't fix what's not broken, eh?

Phoenix Tears · Apr 09, 2008, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Bad post Pheonix Tears, bad post.

Yes lets mak it so Rangers can only use swords from the warior lins, but no Shields or off hands, I LOLED HEARTILY. You have no idea why Monks carry spears do you? nor do you have any idea what the Monk Sacrifices from a normal "wand+ Focus" set to carry the spear, nor have you ever heard of weapon swapping.

OMG NERF SYNERGY, DO IT!!!!!! nerf Creativity too while your at it.

I'm still loling at your post.

Still loling here too

thats not creativity, thats stupidity

Your only one of the massive load of players, which players every shit, as long its only powerful and has somehow a good synergy.

But it it makes anyhow sense and looks logical, you absolutely don't care about and thats the point, that makes us both different.

I find Monks with spears not logical, the spear is no monk weapon and was never, so why should they be able to use it.
This is as terrible unlogical, like Warrioers runnign aroudn with "Magic Staffs"

I don't have to play such idiocy, to know, why Monks runs around with spears, because with Caster Mod the loss of Energy is not so big, Spears do more damage than Staffs and its one of 2 only ranged ways for them to deal physical damage, instead of ever elemental ones with their staffs/wands.
The rest is explainable through any synergy through skill builds

However, stop these silly assumings, when you absolutely don't know me
I can only lol at you for being one of those people, which play every shit, as long its only powerful. When this is your way of playing, games like WoW or cheap F2P MMO's or so i think are better for you. Games, where you absolutely don''t have to await 0% logical thinking, where everythign and everyone thinks only about to have more Power...Power! ...POWER!...POWEEEERRRRR!!

N1ghtstalker · Apr 09, 2008, 10:42 AM // 10:42

making people unable to use other kinds of weapons would be insane to do
you gonna prevent 55 monks to stop using swords or spears for their enchants?
no, let everyone use their weapons as they want it
after skills now even the versitality and creativity has to be nerfed
lets all play a boring RPG game on PS2 then where you can only use that what they give you and nothing else ffs...

quickmonty · Apr 09, 2008, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

.........................................

So, according to you, my necro can't use a longbow to pull mobs when I H/H? Totally stupid!

Also, about the monks with spears. I think you are being really myopic and thinking only of christian monks. Shaolin monks train with all types of weapons, including spears.

Please, stop with the stereotyping and open your mind.

~ Dan ~ · Apr 09, 2008, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Deathgard

Aload of jibberish
ALL THESE BUILDS WHERE EASILY BEATEN BY GOOD PLAYERS WHILE THE POOR PLAYERS CAME HERE TO CRY FOR A NERF!!

So? That means these people can roll over all the other average players despite being crap themselves?

The point here, is that it doesn't matter if these scrub builds can be beaten by good players. They are still effective in a shit player's hands and get him the reward of a title and emote.

That is wrong.